Monday, November 13. 2006
Doing Your MFA in Writing All Over Again
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You aren’t going to share their responses?
As a layman (though one who has applied, enrolled and even taken classes), I’d watch out for expense. I’m of the belief that it’s not warranted to go into any amount of debt for an MFA program. Wouldn’t say I have an allergy to academia, more an allergy to financial investment without return—when it seems to me that many different routes are viable.
Of course, there are programs that give full tuition and a handsome stipend (some close to what I presently make in the "professional" world). Shoot for these, I guess(?) Though the application process itself can be rather expensive.
Personally, I think I’d benefit greatly from the structure of a program, but I won’t be looking into one until Powerball comes through for me. (Perhaps not even then.)
As a layman (though one who has applied, enrolled and even taken classes), I’d watch out for expense. I’m of the belief that it’s not warranted to go into any amount of debt for an MFA program. Wouldn’t say I have an allergy to academia, more an allergy to financial investment without return—when it seems to me that many different routes are viable.
Of course, there are programs that give full tuition and a handsome stipend (some close to what I presently make in the "professional" world). Shoot for these, I guess(?) Though the application process itself can be rather expensive.
Personally, I think I’d benefit greatly from the structure of a program, but I won’t be looking into one until Powerball comes through for me. (Perhaps not even then.)
Yes, I agree cost is a big deal. As an IT executive, I’m not exactly going into all this expecting a monetary ROI (though I’m open to it!) Thanks for stopping by. And good luck with Powerball.
Robert, I’m neither MFA nor layman, having done half a dozen courses, classes or workshops in poetry, by private, public and university offered and taught poetry as part of English classes.
What I didn’t initially get is that everyone you meet is probably famous in some circle and everyone you meet is flesh and blood approachable. The point may be as much to connect with people you enjoy and who enjoy you as much as learning form and historical context.
What I didn’t initially get is that everyone you meet is probably famous in some circle and everyone you meet is flesh and blood approachable. The point may be as much to connect with people you enjoy and who enjoy you as much as learning form and historical context.
Thanks, Pearl. Being by reputation a staunch introvert, I hadn’t considered the social implications of the MFA as much as I have just been focusing on how to learn to write better. But I think you’re right — the personal connections are as important to the whole process of poetry as what I will read in books. Good reminder.
thanks for stopping by my blog! i do not regret my MFA at all—it has really accelerated my own writing progress and solidified my commitment. know that in the end, you set your own pace.
the professors are wonderful but don’t always have time for you, and maybe you won’t even end up with a mentor…and maybe you won’t have a ton of tight writing friendships, and you may be disappointed…but at least in my case, i’ve got some work to show for it all.
the professors are wonderful but don’t always have time for you, and maybe you won’t even end up with a mentor…and maybe you won’t have a ton of tight writing friendships, and you may be disappointed…but at least in my case, i’ve got some work to show for it all.
Thanks, like I was saying to Pearl I hadn’t considered the homosocial aspects at the top of my list, really focusing on having a body of work to show for it all at the end more than anything. But the experience is probably the most important part, not the output. And to that end, people are probably the most important part of the experience (not the books per se). So, again I’m learning how to value process over product, poets over poems.
Well, Robert, none of my favorite living writers have an MFA. Not one. All you need to write well is a library card, some discipline, and balls to write exactly how you want no matter what anyone tells you—unless you LOVE their writing—than listen to them. So that’s my advice. Good luck. Did you get the Wright book yet?
Hey Jenni,
No Wright yet but our mail hasn’t come for the last four days. I certainly value the "library card and large gonads" approach ala Billy Collins to just teaching yourself about poetry. That said, I couldn’t pass up the chance to study directly with some poets whose work I admire. I also know that having a structure helps keep me focused - I wrote a ton in the masterclass I did several years ago, and afterward there was a lull. Plus the fine art of taking feedback has been really valuable to improving my work - something I can’t get from books but for which I need other poets. Anyway, we’ll see how it all shapes up.
Cheers,
Robert
No Wright yet but our mail hasn’t come for the last four days. I certainly value the "library card and large gonads" approach ala Billy Collins to just teaching yourself about poetry. That said, I couldn’t pass up the chance to study directly with some poets whose work I admire. I also know that having a structure helps keep me focused - I wrote a ton in the masterclass I did several years ago, and afterward there was a lull. Plus the fine art of taking feedback has been really valuable to improving my work - something I can’t get from books but for which I need other poets. Anyway, we’ll see how it all shapes up.
Cheers,
Robert
Sorry to hear that I’m not one of Jadepark’s favorite living writers. Seriously, I did an MFA at Iowa 1978-1980 & it was terrifically useful. I learned a lot technically, but I also bought myself the time to become a real writer. I suspect that there are 2nd & 3rd rung MFA programs that are not worth the money, but spending two years working with Donald Justice & Sandra McPherson was certainly worth the few thousand dollars debt I accumulated in the first year (I had a fellowship the 2nd year). The degree, before I’d published much, also got me my first couple of teaching jobs. Of course, you may not want to teach, but me, I still love it after 25 years.
Hey Joe,
So glad to hear it’s been fruitful to for you. When my father caught wind of my early interest in pursuing an MFA, there was only one place he thought I should go: Iowa. Having done his undergraduate study there and found a mentor and friend in James Hearst, he regards Iowa as the pinnacle of writing schools. I guess most do.
But the thought of restructuring our lives so dramatically to do a full-time program in Iowa just didn’t seem to fit for now. My wife’s relationship to the classical music world pretty well demands we stick closer to one coast or another.
Dad was a little consoled to hear Pacific lured Marvin Bell out of the cornfields to come teach in their program. Mainly, I’m excited to study with Joe Millar and meet the other faculty he’s proud to call colleagues.
I loved my one teaching experience as a guest lecturer several years ago. That said, MFA programs these days come with a huge red flashing warning sign saying "don’t do this to try to break in to the saturated teaching market - only do it to become a better writer." Which is my main impetus. Still, it seems inevitable that I’ll teach in some form or another as I continue to make poetry an important part of my life.
Cheers,
Robert
So glad to hear it’s been fruitful to for you. When my father caught wind of my early interest in pursuing an MFA, there was only one place he thought I should go: Iowa. Having done his undergraduate study there and found a mentor and friend in James Hearst, he regards Iowa as the pinnacle of writing schools. I guess most do.
But the thought of restructuring our lives so dramatically to do a full-time program in Iowa just didn’t seem to fit for now. My wife’s relationship to the classical music world pretty well demands we stick closer to one coast or another.
Dad was a little consoled to hear Pacific lured Marvin Bell out of the cornfields to come teach in their program. Mainly, I’m excited to study with Joe Millar and meet the other faculty he’s proud to call colleagues.
I loved my one teaching experience as a guest lecturer several years ago. That said, MFA programs these days come with a huge red flashing warning sign saying "don’t do this to try to break in to the saturated teaching market - only do it to become a better writer." Which is my main impetus. Still, it seems inevitable that I’ll teach in some form or another as I continue to make poetry an important part of my life.
Cheers,
Robert
Just a p.s. on this to say I’m fascinated that my request for advice going into an MFA program has come back with a lot of input about whether or not MFA programs themselves are even of value. I guess that’s a pretty hot topic in the poetry world right now. My take is you get out whatever you put into them, and I’m guessing that will especially be the case in this low-residency format.
the whole reason i did my mfa is that it meant i could buy myself time to write. i think the "real writers don’t have MFAs" argument is a waste of time. if you have the motivation, the funds, and the mentorship to do it on your own without a program, then good for you. way to go. you’re a better person/writer/whatever than i am.
me, i knew that i would continue to work 40 hrs a week and wish i was writing. so, the past two-and-a-half years, i made a promise to myself that i would concentrate on writing by doing an MFA. i chose a place that many people said, "huh? why’d you go there?" when i chose, and my response was that i really liked the profs and staff there as people.
my gut instinct turned out to be what i consider one of the best decisions i have ever made. i have made good writer friends (and some even better writer "enemies"). the professors i have had, while writers in their own right, were also just as much teachers and mentors and ALWAYS had time for me. and, most importantly, i have seen a dramatic change in my writing. i don’t think it’s become homogenized by workshop. i think i’ve become bold and daring and confident in my work.
who knows whether it will serve me to get published frequently, or famously, or in large quantities? i’ve made my peace with that. in the meantime, i don’t regret doing it (even with my massive debt) one single bit.
best of luck to you. feel free to email me if you have questions or want to discuss further.
me, i knew that i would continue to work 40 hrs a week and wish i was writing. so, the past two-and-a-half years, i made a promise to myself that i would concentrate on writing by doing an MFA. i chose a place that many people said, "huh? why’d you go there?" when i chose, and my response was that i really liked the profs and staff there as people.
my gut instinct turned out to be what i consider one of the best decisions i have ever made. i have made good writer friends (and some even better writer "enemies"). the professors i have had, while writers in their own right, were also just as much teachers and mentors and ALWAYS had time for me. and, most importantly, i have seen a dramatic change in my writing. i don’t think it’s become homogenized by workshop. i think i’ve become bold and daring and confident in my work.
who knows whether it will serve me to get published frequently, or famously, or in large quantities? i’ve made my peace with that. in the meantime, i don’t regret doing it (even with my massive debt) one single bit.
best of luck to you. feel free to email me if you have questions or want to discuss further.
Thanks for your thoughts on the MFA. I appreciate it.
I, too, have found that following my instincts has so far led me into some unexpectedly blessed territory. In a way it seems like the only compass that’s relevant in such a highly subjective landscape.
I, too, have found that following my instincts has so far led me into some unexpectedly blessed territory. In a way it seems like the only compass that’s relevant in such a highly subjective landscape.
Hi Robert
I want to add—I am at a program with a "good reputation" but not a "great" or "stellar" one like Iowa. I still find it a useful experience—like I said, i went for the time and space. I did get accepted into a "top MFA program" in New York City, but turned it down. I imagine if I’d gone to that program, I may have an agent by now (maybe?). But I couldn’t fathom living away from my hubby for 2 years. Writing is important, but my marriage is #1. I have no regrets, because in the end, it’s the writing I do, and the work I put out.
Plus the people in my program, when I interviewed them, seemed TONS happier. Happiness is important too.
I want to add—I am at a program with a "good reputation" but not a "great" or "stellar" one like Iowa. I still find it a useful experience—like I said, i went for the time and space. I did get accepted into a "top MFA program" in New York City, but turned it down. I imagine if I’d gone to that program, I may have an agent by now (maybe?). But I couldn’t fathom living away from my hubby for 2 years. Writing is important, but my marriage is #1. I have no regrets, because in the end, it’s the writing I do, and the work I put out.
Plus the people in my program, when I interviewed them, seemed TONS happier. Happiness is important too.
Happiness is overrated. Seriously, you have probably seen the John Ciardi quote on the sidebar: "You don’t have to suffer to be a poet; adolescence is enough suffering for anyone." Why not be happy?
I think the low-residency format will present unique challenges to me, but I am the kind of highly self-motivated and intensely solitary person that thrives on independent study. Plus, like you, this program fits with the rest of my life much better than relocating and/or giving up my job.
I certainly enjoyed the community when living in LA and attending, for example, Suzanne Lummis’ masterclass. That said, my work has taken an intensely personal tone since the passing of our son, has become more deeply meditative, and in some ways that requires a lot of time alone.
Amazing how the same three letters can signify dramatically different experiences for each person. Then again, that’s writing, isn’t it? Intensely individual, yet somehow universal.
I think the low-residency format will present unique challenges to me, but I am the kind of highly self-motivated and intensely solitary person that thrives on independent study. Plus, like you, this program fits with the rest of my life much better than relocating and/or giving up my job.
I certainly enjoyed the community when living in LA and attending, for example, Suzanne Lummis’ masterclass. That said, my work has taken an intensely personal tone since the passing of our son, has become more deeply meditative, and in some ways that requires a lot of time alone.
Amazing how the same three letters can signify dramatically different experiences for each person. Then again, that’s writing, isn’t it? Intensely individual, yet somehow universal.
There are many paths. Full time programs are great for young people without lots of obligations; low res programs can be just as good & make sense for people with adult lives & responsibilities. And has people have already pointed out, lots of good writers don’t have MFAs. The main value of any program — full time or low res — is that it focuses the mind & gives you a chance to serve an apprenticeship. My main evaluative criteria would involve asking whether the writers who teach in the program are the kind of writer you want to be? Not that they will require or you will desire to imitate them, but you don’t want to be working at cross purposes, either.
Thanks, Joe. Those were indeed my aims and evaluation criteria in choosing Pacific.
I’ve applied to and been accepted at Pacific. I admit to knowing next to nothing about their reputation and now that I’ve been accepted there, I am curious about that. I’ve also applied to Warren Wilson and Goddard.
Initially, I thought I would choose either Goddard or Warren Wilson if I got accepted to all three, but I’m already leaning toward Pacific because they really seem to want me and because they have been incredibly nice in all my communications with them. I admit, though, that reputation is somewhat important to me. I went to Michigan for my B.A. and you know what they say about Michigan alums: Arrogant.
So what can you tell me about Pacific’s rep? What made you choose them? How long have they been around?
Initially, I thought I would choose either Goddard or Warren Wilson if I got accepted to all three, but I’m already leaning toward Pacific because they really seem to want me and because they have been incredibly nice in all my communications with them. I admit, though, that reputation is somewhat important to me. I went to Michigan for my B.A. and you know what they say about Michigan alums: Arrogant.
So what can you tell me about Pacific’s rep? What made you choose them? How long have they been around?
Hi Adrianna,
The reason you know next to nothing about Pacific’s reputation is that they have only graduated two classes so far. So, there is no reputation yet. That said, it’s not too hard to see that a program establishes its reputation based on the quality of applicants they attract (and, sadly, the quantity they reject) as well as how these applicants fare after graduation (which seems to depend a lot on commitment as well as talent). Committed, talented students are attracted to different programs for different reasons. Me? I didn’t go to Pacific for its (nonexistent) reputation. There were three reasons:
[X] Faculty
[X] Faculty
[X] Faculty
That’s the allure of a low-res: talented writers and teachers who would otherwise have to commit to a single full-time institution (or, in Marvin Bell’s case, maybe just retire fully) can instead work one-on-one with serious students who also have day jobs and other real-life responsibilities. The faculty I’ve talked to often have other gigs going on at very reputable universities - but they seem to sincerely believe in the low-res model. And they seem to like Pacific because it is unpretentious and positive.
The experience you had with the admissions staff being friendly and helpful is just the beginning in my experience. I will be flying down to walk in a doctorate graduation during one day of the coming residency - and they have volunteered to have an intern pick me up from the train station when I get back after midnight! Obviously, that kind of logistical help on its own doesn’t make or break a program - but that’s just one example of the way these people seem to have been almost bending over backwards to help make things work in the program. I can only imagine that extends to the faculty as well, and makes up another part of why they seem so loyal to Pacific and happy to be there.
I did my undergrad at Berkeley and graduated as both a Regents and Chancellors and an Alumni Scholar. It was great to be part of the brainiac cattle call and to learn from people like Robert Hass and Stephen Booth. Turning now to focus on craft more than criticism, I feel like the self-paced approach, integration with my adult life, and no-nonsense personal attention from talented writers who have made it not just in academia but the larger literary world - all fits me like a glove.
Talk to people. Read the work of faculty and think about what it might be like to study with them. I mostly went on that and my gut - and I couldn’t be happier that I ended up here.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Robert
The reason you know next to nothing about Pacific’s reputation is that they have only graduated two classes so far. So, there is no reputation yet. That said, it’s not too hard to see that a program establishes its reputation based on the quality of applicants they attract (and, sadly, the quantity they reject) as well as how these applicants fare after graduation (which seems to depend a lot on commitment as well as talent). Committed, talented students are attracted to different programs for different reasons. Me? I didn’t go to Pacific for its (nonexistent) reputation. There were three reasons:
[X] Faculty
[X] Faculty
[X] Faculty
That’s the allure of a low-res: talented writers and teachers who would otherwise have to commit to a single full-time institution (or, in Marvin Bell’s case, maybe just retire fully) can instead work one-on-one with serious students who also have day jobs and other real-life responsibilities. The faculty I’ve talked to often have other gigs going on at very reputable universities - but they seem to sincerely believe in the low-res model. And they seem to like Pacific because it is unpretentious and positive.
The experience you had with the admissions staff being friendly and helpful is just the beginning in my experience. I will be flying down to walk in a doctorate graduation during one day of the coming residency - and they have volunteered to have an intern pick me up from the train station when I get back after midnight! Obviously, that kind of logistical help on its own doesn’t make or break a program - but that’s just one example of the way these people seem to have been almost bending over backwards to help make things work in the program. I can only imagine that extends to the faculty as well, and makes up another part of why they seem so loyal to Pacific and happy to be there.
I did my undergrad at Berkeley and graduated as both a Regents and Chancellors and an Alumni Scholar. It was great to be part of the brainiac cattle call and to learn from people like Robert Hass and Stephen Booth. Turning now to focus on craft more than criticism, I feel like the self-paced approach, integration with my adult life, and no-nonsense personal attention from talented writers who have made it not just in academia but the larger literary world - all fits me like a glove.
Talk to people. Read the work of faculty and think about what it might be like to study with them. I mostly went on that and my gut - and I couldn’t be happier that I ended up here.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Robert
wow robert—i wonder if went to Berkeley together—i was an english major there…
Well, I spent the entire first year in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science department, disbelieving the dot-com hype and finding out I could learn what I wanted to learn about all that on my own. Then I transferred into English having done all engineering and so spent the next five semesters taking basically all English classes - sometimes four in a semester. Thanks to AP credits I still managed to graduate a semester early, but all that is to say my time in the English department was fairly short-lived and intense. Started doing English mid-‘97 and finished up in December of ‘99.
I was friends with a ton of EECS people,and married one myself! I was English class of ‘95, and knew a ton of EECS people 91-99. I wonder if I met you…?
Hiya Ms. Jade,
The email address you left seems to be bouncing, so I’ll respond here in hopes that you loop back to the site at some point.
As per my chameleonic nature, I hung out with a lot of different groups - from the sailing club prep-school kids to the neo-punk/neo-hippie crowd on Telegraph. The group I felt most at home with in college, though, was the Student-to-Student Peer Counseling group on campus. Truly refreshing to hang out with people who value really listening to one another with Rogerian regard. So, if you or anyone you know ever came in for counseling, you might have seen me during office hours.
Other than that, I kept a pretty low profile at Cal. Seems like I would get so much more out of my undergrad. days knowing what I know now than I did then. I was finding myself, more than anything, in those days - and learned as much from the City of Berkeley as I did on campus.
In any case, small world. Don’t be a stranger.
Best,
Robert
The email address you left seems to be bouncing, so I’ll respond here in hopes that you loop back to the site at some point.
As per my chameleonic nature, I hung out with a lot of different groups - from the sailing club prep-school kids to the neo-punk/neo-hippie crowd on Telegraph. The group I felt most at home with in college, though, was the Student-to-Student Peer Counseling group on campus. Truly refreshing to hang out with people who value really listening to one another with Rogerian regard. So, if you or anyone you know ever came in for counseling, you might have seen me during office hours.
Other than that, I kept a pretty low profile at Cal. Seems like I would get so much more out of my undergrad. days knowing what I know now than I did then. I was finding myself, more than anything, in those days - and learned as much from the City of Berkeley as I did on campus.
In any case, small world. Don’t be a stranger.
Best,
Robert
Hi Robert
Shot you an email back just now—our paths were certainly close but never crossed at Berkeley, though oddly and happily crossing now.
Shot you an email back just now—our paths were certainly close but never crossed at Berkeley, though oddly and happily crossing now.
